That said.

I have also played a very arrogant full of himself asshole. He was a great character to play, but he also had money and power behind him so it made him more than a little insufferable. I would OOC disclaimer that as the pilot of my char, I could come up with a reason for him to be there. I can’t guarantee it’s going to be enjoyable for a few different reasons. I was also willing to tone down or full send the jerkfaceness depending on the OOC person and I did check in a lot, BUT the char was designed a certain way. If you weren’t part of his chosen few, you weren’t worthy of air in his eyes. I still had amazing RP and one of his IC best friends started as one of his nemesis at the beginning. It means I can see the ‘my guy’ as also writing for the the story line and where/how your char fits into the story.

A true “My Guy” player is not politely deciding to sit out a session that they just aren’t feeling into. A true “My Guy” player is sitting there staring longingly through the glass wishing they could participate but they feel they cannot because it would contradict Characterization. They signed up for the trip to the dangerous planet, got there, and realized “My guy would stay on the ship” and feel genuinely disarmed and rendered powerless by this realization. That’s what we’re talking about here.

More on topic, I find people who are willing to ‘yes and’ are less likely to be a My Guy, because they aren’t really trying to be the main character all the time but truly enjoy having fun with other people and just want to play.

This “yes and” thing has probably tangented too far to be useful, but the reason I was brought it up originally is because I really don’t think this is the default MU behavior.

I agree it’s not the default, but I’m not sure default MU behavior is what I want out of a MU at this point in my time with the hobby (especially given all of the interesting new RP I’ve done outside of MUing and the few times I’ve done improv on stage).

What do you think this looks like in practice?

I think maybe we’re just using different definitions. I’ve literally never heard of yes-and outside of improv acting. Here are a few quotes that reflect how it’s always been explained to me:

a rule-of-thumb in improvisational theater that suggests that an improviser should accept what another improviser has stated (“yes”) and then expand on that line of thinking (“and”)… one should not reject the basic premises introduced by the other person (Wikipedia)

There are no wrong ideas in improv. Every suggestion, no matter how outlandish or seemingly insignificant, is an opportunity to explore and create. By saying “yes, and,” improvisers open themselves up to endless possibilities and tap into a wellspring of creativity. It’s not just about agreeing with your scene partner; it’s also about building on their ideas, no matter how wacky they may seem. (Backstage)

That is just so far from my experience MUSHing I can’t even.

ETA: This “yes and” thing has probably tangented too far to be useful, but the reason I was brought it up originally is because I really don’t think this is the default MU behavior. Folks will consider other players, sure, but mostly they just do what’s fun for them, within the bounds of what they think their character would do. I think that’s why you get a lot of straying over into “my guy” territory.

…not until the player themself brought it up, that is…

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

we’re not talking about TTRPGs, though; we’re talking about MU*s. they may take systems from TTRPGs, stats and dice and such, but the social structure of how players have to persistently interact is entirely different from a tabletop experience.

Yes, I realize MUs are not TTRPGS (obviously). I said it was because of the TTRPG influence, which I believe came over along with the “stats and dice and such”.

plenty of MU*s have been entirely divorced from TTRPGs. like – plenty of them haven’t had stats or sheets at all. that was the majority of the games i played growing up

Seriously - have you seen “yes-and/no-but” as a commonplace principle in your MUSHing experience? Because I haven’t, even on games with a cooperative focus.

i would absolutely say it’s commonplace in nearly all of the games i’ve played. despite arguing about MU*s =/= TTRPGs just a second ago, i would in fact say that this philosophy has also extended to most of the TTRPG games i’ve played at, too.

maybe we’re just understanding the philosophy differently? to me, this is just a description of the basic philosophy of cooperative storytelling and trying – where appropriate, yes – to build upon what your fellow players are giving you. we even have a common phrase that gets trotted out for when people play against this philosophy in a particular way: no-selling. no-selling is frustrating and obnoxious for players because it tends to be a refusal of story rather than building on story.

“no, but” is a hugely common piece of advice given to GMs, both in tabletop and on MU*s – the idea that you be able to give characters something to keep moving forward, even if it’s a more difficult or more dangerous path, in cases where they fail.

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

we’re not talking about TTRPGs, though; we’re talking about MU*s. they may take systems from TTRPGs, stats and dice and such, but the social structure of how players have to persistently interact is entirely different from a tabletop experience.

Yes, I realize MUs are not TTRPGS (obviously). I said it was because of the TTRPG influence, which I believe came over along with the “stats and dice and such”.

Seriously - have you seen “yes-and/no-but” as a commonplace principle in your MUSHing experience? Because I haven’t, even on games with a cooperative focus.

Yes, absolutely, to such a degree your question baffles me so I ask:

What do you think this looks like in practice?

I’m going to push back a little here. … I also do my very best to know my place and try and decide if my presence in that scene is going to add to it. So if in your example the RP is happening in the biker bar, and the RP is happening because a gang of bikers is having a scene for their faction, and you are not in the faction, does your character add value to the scene?

@Faraday said in "My Guy Syndrome":

I still think there’s nothing wrong with politely bowing out of a scene where your character just doesn’t fit.

Fully agreed on both points. “Yes and”-ing yourself into a scene is great… if you fit yourself into the scene and respect the other players and characters to do it (and if they’re okay with it in the first place/the scene is open). People who come into a scene and take it over are at least as bad as My Guys.

we’re not talking about TTRPGs, though; we’re talking about MU*s. they may take systems from TTRPGs, stats and dice and such, but the social structure of how players have to persistently interact is entirely different from a tabletop experience.

Yes, I realize MUs are not TTRPGS (obviously). I said it was because of the TTRPG influence, which I believe came over along with the “stats and dice and such”.

Seriously - have you seen “yes-and/no-but” as a commonplace principle in your MUSHing experience? Because I haven’t, even on games with a cooperative focus.

The My-Guyer’s actions

Such a person shall henceforth be called MyGuyver.

Glad to see we’ve squared away that Yes, And & No, But are the same fundamental concepts.

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

i really don’t think anyone was likely intending citing this to mean they think everyone should literally be saying yes to everything every single time

I was challenging it even as a general rule / starting point. “Yes, and…” is a perfectly valid improv technique, but that’s not the framework that most TTRPGs (and by proxy many MUs, which have one foot in their TTRPG roots) operate within.

we’re not talking about TTRPGs, though; we’re talking about MU*s. they may take systems from TTRPGs, stats and dice and such, but the social structure of how players have to persistently interact is entirely different from a tabletop experience.

That aside, I think @Trashcan raises an important point that “No, but…” is an equally valid improv response.

yes, i do agree there. i think that’s really just an expansion of the same philosophy. it’s about the collaborative building on what the other player is offering.

i really don’t think anyone was likely intending citing this to mean they think everyone should literally be saying yes to everything every single time

I was challenging it even as a general rule / starting point. “Yes, and…” is a perfectly valid improv technique, but that’s not the framework that most TTRPGs (and by proxy many MUs, which have one foot in their TTRPG roots) operate within.

It’s not: “My character wants to shoot the Cylon.” “Yes, and…”

More often it’s “roll for it” or even “no that isn’t going to work.”

Again, I’m not saying you can’t approach things that way, I just don’t think most MUSHers do.

That aside, I think @Trashcan raises an important point that “No, but…” is an equally valid improv response.

A character can totally encounter something that results in them beating feet or whatever to get out of the scene. Scene exits are fine in improv (which is where “Yes, And” was originally given an identity as a concept), and they can be in RP. The RP can indicate that the PCs are going to the stable to defend the horses from the giant mutant wolf, and a player can “Yes, And” by totally posing, “Ser Gobles suddenly gasps at the mention of giant mutant wolves, his armor chattering in fear, ‘I… I am not yet ready to face the menace of the mutant wolves, I must away. You have my support in this task, but I cannot face them myself.’ He quickly runs away, not wanting to be confronted by the source of his phobia.” In that case, you’re not denying anything that’s already happened, you’re just exiting the narrative without derailing it.

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

@Pavel said in "My Guy Syndrome":

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

@Faraday said in "My Guy Syndrome":

Collaboration doesn’t mean always saying “yes” to everything. It means trying your best to find a mutually-fun solution, but also recognizing that sometimes people want opposite things and someone’s not going to get their idea of fun.

i really don’t think anyone was likely intending citing this to mean they think everyone should literally be saying yes to everything every single time

Here? Maybe not. Elsewhere? It’s absolutely been a thing.

it’s useless to try and account for every extremist view of a given perspective; they exist for every opinion. i was indeed talking about the conversation happening here

Yes, let us simply discount and ignore any experience that doesn’t fit within our own.

that literally wasn’t my point??? i wasn’t saying that that extreme take could never exist in the world. just that i don’t think anyone here in this conversation was expressing it, because it would be nonsensical. and that it would be exhausting trying to defend every single position from the angle of “i must always acknowledge the possibility for someone to take this to the absolute extreme,” because there’s an absolute extreme for everything, but it’s okay to approach conversations with a certain expectation of common sense.

because i do think it’s common sense that a game could not reasonably survive “everyone says yes to every single other player” and if someone came in her seriously positing that idea, we’d all just call it ridiculous and unsustainable. it wouldn’t be worth wasting time on

Yes, let us simply discount and ignore any experience that doesn’t fit within our own.

Yes, AND let us simply discount and ignore any experience that doesn’t fit within our own.

@Pavel said in "My Guy Syndrome":

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

@Faraday said in "My Guy Syndrome":

Collaboration doesn’t mean always saying “yes” to everything. It means trying your best to find a mutually-fun solution, but also recognizing that sometimes people want opposite things and someone’s not going to get their idea of fun.

i really don’t think anyone was likely intending citing this to mean they think everyone should literally be saying yes to everything every single time

Here? Maybe not. Elsewhere? It’s absolutely been a thing.

it’s useless to try and account for every extremist view of a given perspective; they exist for every opinion. i was indeed talking about the conversation happening here

Yes, let us simply discount and ignore any experience that doesn’t fit within our own.

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

@Faraday said in "My Guy Syndrome":

Collaboration doesn’t mean always saying “yes” to everything. It means trying your best to find a mutually-fun solution, but also recognizing that sometimes people want opposite things and someone’s not going to get their idea of fun.

i really don’t think anyone was likely intending citing this to mean they think everyone should literally be saying yes to everything every single time

Here? Maybe not. Elsewhere? It’s absolutely been a thing.

it’s useless to try and account for every extremist view of a given perspective; they exist for every opinion. i was indeed talking about the conversation happening here

That being said your characters “don’t just write themselves” and I do think you have to be consciously aware if your decisions would make for good RP.

Agreed. When I say that my characters write themselves I typically mean that I’ve set up internal consistency and logic that would be difficult to reasonably violate, but it’s my responsibility therefore to set up that logic and consistency in a way that produces positive outcomes for the other players.

It’s a collaborative writing exercise, as has been stated already, but collaboration requires compromise on occasion as well as acceptance that not everything is for me. My high-powered executive wouldn’t be at the biker bar, but if I want to play with the bikers, then we can discuss and compromise to come up with an alternative location at a different time.

As for how to deal with it on a game, when it becomes exceedingly disruptive or problematic? Execution. Guillotines optional.

@Roz said in "My Guy Syndrome":

@Faraday said in "My Guy Syndrome":

Collaboration doesn’t mean always saying “yes” to everything. It means trying your best to find a mutually-fun solution, but also recognizing that sometimes people want opposite things and someone’s not going to get their idea of fun.

i really don’t think anyone was likely intending citing this to mean they think everyone should literally be saying yes to everything every single time

Here? Maybe not. Elsewhere? It’s absolutely been a thing.

@chorus said in "My Guy Syndrome":

Just in general, MUSH RP is a “yes, and” medium.
Collaboration doesn’t mean always saying “yes” to everything. It means trying your best to find a mutually-fun solution, but also recognizing that sometimes people want opposite things and someone’s not going to get their idea of fun.

i really don’t think anyone was likely intending citing this to mean they think everyone should literally be saying yes to everything every single time

Yeah, that can be fun - but I still think there’s nothing wrong with politely bowing out of a scene where your character just doesn’t fit.

I agree. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of instances of this causing disruption just comes out of people not understanding how to bow out politely. In cases where I do it, and this might be a tiny bit shady, I simply say something along the lines of “My RL responsibilities require me to hop offline for a while.” and then I just log off.